Stories with an ICON - A love of Land Cruisers, and worries about their future. A keynote with ICON'S Jonathan Ward

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 09/09/2019 at 13:26 • Filed to: Land Cruiser, Jonathan Ward, ICON

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At Cruiser Fest 2019, an annual gathering of Land Cruiser geeks from across the land, a crowd gathered to hear keynote speaking and special guest Jonathan Ward.

Ward, if you didn’t know, is the mind behind the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! brands, masters of over the top ultra restorations for classic 4x4's and derelicts. He’s also a complete Land Cruiser nut who admits to having owned “just over 2000 land cruisers” by the numbers.

Over the course of the next hour or so Ward lays down with his experiences with Land Cruisers, Toyota corporate and his fears and expectations about the future of Land Cruiser to give some context and follow up to the shit-storm that sprung.

In this little over an hour long keynote address he talks about a lot and there is a LOT to unpack so I’m going to post the entire keynote (with permission from the Land Cruiser Heritage Museums director) and provides rough times and notes.

If you are like me you are going to be doing a lot of nodding and head-shaking

Lets begin

The first 15 minutes or so are a great history of his love of Land Cruisers and how he got started in Business.

Starting at 15 minutes in is what I would call the start of insight into Toyota that really sheds light onto what the history of the Land Cruiser may be.

Its where Toyota figured out that long life wasn’t as important as repeat consumerism.

About 20 minutes his experience with Toyota Corporate and his introduction with “Mr. Toyota”.

This is where it gets really interesting for me and it explains a lot about how the FJ Cruiser developed, why Toyota doesn’t understand how to market the Land Cruiser.

22 minutes in ew get into this

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It’s a fascination look into Japanese culture vs American culture and it reveals a lot about Ward and his personal passions for car culture and how much of a genuine car guy he is.

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Which explains why the 200 series is the way it is in the US anyway.

Around 24 minutes in is a fascinating story about the birth of the FJ Cruiser and Ward’s contribution as well as a brief and interesting history of the Bandeirante, a domestically produced Toyota Land Cruiser from Brazil that Toyota was, apparently, embarrassed by.

as far as I can work out, this is the prototype Ward references

which...I don’t love, but I love more than the FJ cruiser I think.

As a self proclaimed industrial designer Ward is obviously focused on design and longevity before mass market commoditization, thats not a surprise, but I was interested in his take on that model going forward.

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As global volume wains reaching “peak car” what is going to keep business alive? Whats the next path? It’s an interesting thought.

Back to his involvement with his part of the FJ cruiser project we get a peak into his car guy status. I was nodding my head furiously when he talked about FJ Cruiser changes that many people have complained about for years.

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Interesting to note that the much loved triple wipers were one of his contributions that stuck, same with the speedo design. (plus the white grill surround)

Which has a nice retro vibe.

At 39:00 minutes comes an INFURIATING story about certification, and destruction.

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Which explains why his creations have crate engines from (mostly) GM instead of sticking with Toyota...its not because he didn’t want to...its because Toyota doesn’t really want to help.

I’ve also heard that the difference in price between putting an LS3 in an ICON 45 and a Toyota UR-fe (Tundra/Land Cruiser 5.7 V8) would be about an additional $100,000 for how much more difficult Toyota makes it.

At 50:00 minutes in its Q&A time. The first question is how the First FJ44 from ICON came to be. Basically these

This one is owned by the Museum founder Greg Miller

2nd question - (paraphrased) Who’s going to serve the price-point between the 4runner and ICON? Will there be a product that is built to last that I wont have to sell my house for?

“probably wont.”

Ouch

at 55:30 He takes a really interesting take on what it would take to create a sub brand for this market.

My head was falling off from nodding in agreement. This is the car guy answer and I love it! But would it work? Would people pay high prices for a de-contended extremely durable product? Hard to say. I don’t think he’s wrong about lasting tribal consumers and brand loyalists. There is only so much resting on your laurels you can do before you have to get back to your roots of extreme quality and durability.

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This plus the idea of Peak car meaning that quality will be more valuable in the long run that volume...its an interesting thought.

Would you buy a higher priced basic super Toyota?

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I was dying here. YES!

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Next Question - Did toyota consider a convertable with the FJ Cruiser?

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Which provides an interesting segue to the new Ford Bronco he is currently on the design team and says is coming Q2 2020.

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Im taking this to mean it’s pretty much going to have a removable top and look retro vintage. Woo!

Calling out Toyota for not having the nuts to do their own thing...ouch.

That was a lot to unpack, but man it was rich. Thanks Mr. Ward for your thoughts, Thanks to the Land Cruiser Heritage Museum and Greg Miller for allowing me a copy of this livestream.

I can’t say it brought me much joy to hear about Toyota’s lack of interest in the North American passions towards the Land Cruiser and its heritage and to hear that the Cruiser we may or may not be getting will never be the one this room full of people (and many of you) actually want.

What are your thoughts?

Ash78, voting early and often > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 13:38

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HF Lightning Round: I know a guy locally (through Cub Scouts) who is selling a ‘97 Lexus LX (J80?) with 218k on the clock. Pretty well maintained and looks to be in good shape. It’s gold, tan, and taupe , just like every Lexus from the 90s. Asking $6,500....that’s all I know. Thoughts?

HammerheadFistpunch > Ash78, voting early and often 09/09/2019 at 13:38

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Its fair market value for those.  Depending on conditions and options it would be easy to clean up and flip for double that.

Ash78, voting early and often > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 13:40

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Interesting, thanks. I’d probably be looking for something that could sit in my driveway and get used a couple times a week, but generally just hold up well and not lose value. Not an investment, per se, but maybe...

This era is very rare around here. The LC even more so.

HammerheadFistpunch > Ash78, voting early and often 09/09/2019 at 13:43

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Im worried that the vintage SUV bubble is getting ripe to pop, so if you are going to act...

We’ll see how it plays out.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 13:54

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Even Toyota marketing...they were confused watching Land Rover KILL IT in North America with crap products by milking the heritage language...I argued 10 years ago if they had spoken to that heritage...they would sell enough units to justify being in our market.

Oh man, you don’t even know the half of it. Right now LR is building 60 Trek Edition D5's that they’re going to have around the country for the Defender launch, plus LR is releasing limited edition NAS Defenders in the same number as the original NAS Defenders that came out before they release the general public Defenders . They’re probably going to be around $70k and I think all are sold already.

phenotyp > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 13:57

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Even though I’m the farthest thing from their target market (Toyota and ICON, both), I appreciate the hell out of what Ward’s done and how he’s done it. I want to work on exactly shit like this. 

Looking forward to watching this tonight or tomorrow. Thanks!

benjrblant > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 16:49

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I dunno what to say. The LC has always been an expensive, niche, low-volume enthusiast vehicle in North America.

Unfortunately enthusiasts rarely buy new, so Toyota’s most passionate customers of LC’s are often their 2nd+ owners. Hard to cater to a market that doesn’t pay you directly.

MountainWestCarSpotter > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 17:09

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HF always coming through with great Cruiser content. As soon as I saw the news about it not being long for this market, I made a petition to Save the Land Cruiser.  Here’s the link for anyone who’d like to sign:   http://chng.it/vJkzjFpPqH

HammerheadFistpunch > benjrblant 09/09/2019 at 17:14

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I think the 80 series really changed things in the US. It was the right truck at the right time for the market and the sales success it saw going upmarket convinced Toyota that was the only way American’s would ever buy Land Cruisers again, thus ensuring that most Land Cruiser owners would need to be 2nd hand buyers.

I mean...

I think Toyota mis- interrupted this information as “ American Land Cruiser buyers just want a luxurious Toyota SUV.” When the real message was one Mercedes picked right up on. “American buyers want genuine substance, even if they don’t actually need it”

i.e. Toyota lost the plot. I mean they simply stopped advertising the La nd Cruiser after the 80 series and when the initial excitement of the 100 series wained so did sales and they never recovered.

The 200 series is still a good truck, but its buried. which is a terrible way to market a vehicle.

As I understand is Japanese culture just doesn’t “get” nostalgia or heritage. “keep moving forward” means “the past is in the past” which is 100% NOT what the American market thinks right now.  Heritage and nostalgia are HUUUUGE influencers in this category here.  I think ward got it right, the Land Cruiser was neglected at just the right time when it could have been bigger than ever.

HammerheadFistpunch > MountainWestCarSpotter 09/09/2019 at 17:17

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Signed.  I think it will fall on deaf ears but it certainly wont hurt.

Nothing > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2019 at 22:30

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Toyota has successfully marketed the Tacoma and 4Runner as the adventure off road vehicles. I don’t see them introducing a lower spec Cruiser to be just above the price point of, say, a Pro 4Runner.

I know neither is the Land Cruiser, which quite frankly isn’t marketed at all. I really like the 200, it’s a nice comfortable vehicle. But I’d be more sad at losing the Land Cruiser nameplate than specifically the 200. I wish the FJ would’ve been more than a caricature of the 40. Jeep has so many specs of the Wrangler that I feel Toyota could have had a similar utilitarian lineup with a Land Cruiser.

I also fear the flop of the new Bronco. It’s feeling a bit like the Supra and the NSX with the incredibly long lead up, only (similar to the FJ) to get launched during a recession. I think it’s going to be one model cycle and done.

All in all, it was a great listen, though. Thanks for sharing that.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/10/2019 at 11:46

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This is good Oppo.

Nothing > HammerheadFistpunch 09/10/2019 at 12:16

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I’ll revisit this now that people are going gaga over the new Defender. It’s pretty much exactly what Ward says. There’s definitely a market for Toyota for a non luxobarge Land Cruiser. They just don’t have the cajones to do it, or the desire given the “go forward” Japanese mindset. It’s a shame, really.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > HammerheadFistpunch 09/10/2019 at 23:51

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talking with the europpos, what is interesting how the UK land cruiser is the exact opposite of its US cou nterpart.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > HammerheadFistpunch 09/11/2019 at 08:10

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Toyota aren’t interested in selling you an expensive, low volume, low margin, imported luxury 4x4 when they can sell cheap, high margin, popular and locally assembled 4x4s like the Tacoma and the 4Runner (which sell in almost no other Toyota market outside North America if that tells you anything ).

Things that get marketed are only those that are worthwhile marketing for the organisation that is marketing them.

You may find this baffling but none of the Land Cruisers available down here are heavily marketed either. Niche media mostly...just a bit of print and online plus the usual dealer stuff. Very small exposure. And yet we buy our full annual allocation of 70s and 200s apparently...

agjios > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 05/16/2020 at 19:38

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Coming in somewhat late on this, but I was googling Mr. Ward, and your opinion is based on some seriously incorrect facts . First, t he 4Runner is not locally assembled; i t comes from Japan.

As far at the Tacoma, it’s disingenuous to imply something about American buyers because of the truck that’s available here . The reason that we have the Tacoma is purely because of the Chicken Tax, which keeps us from being able to get the Hilux:

https://jalopnik.com/lets-celebrate-the-50th-birthday-of-americas-worst-tax-977715943

The reason that the 4Runner is not sold in most markets is because since you have the Hilux in most markets, it makes more sense to sell the Fortuner alongside it , which sits on the Hilux platform. There is no point in selling the 4Runner internationally alongside the Prado, because in other markets the Prado is an established name, while in the USA the 4Runner is an established name. Both are essentially the same vehicle.